Do you consider road car turned racecar to be a ruined cars?

"YSI-what can brown do for you" (ysi-what-can-brown-do-for-you) 07/09/2014 at 14:12 • Filed to: None

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Please do tell why!

PheeNoIVI > YSI-what can brown do for you 07/09/2014 at 14:14

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Hell no! Road cars brought back to life

For Sweden > YSI-what can brown do for you 07/09/2014 at 14:18

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Ruined as a street car, yes.

YSI-what can brown do for you > For Sweden 07/09/2014 at 14:21

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. . . I mean yes, but that wasn't really the question. I asked if the car itself is now ruined. Not whether or not it sucks as a street car.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > YSI-what can brown do for you 07/09/2014 at 14:22

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Given that the scorch racing S15 is my favourite S15 I'd say no.

Built by the guy who drives it with money from his dentist day job and using trial and error to get it right. Thing is crazy fast now and certainly not ruined.

YSI-what can brown do for you > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 07/09/2014 at 14:22

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Oooooo, I have seen pictures of this!

For Sweden > YSI-what can brown do for you 07/09/2014 at 14:22

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If the car is ruined overall depends on the craftsmanship of the race car modifications.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > YSI-what can brown do for you 07/09/2014 at 14:24

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I'm blocked from youtube here but search scorch racing s15 tsukuba and turn up the speakers, the onboard videos are great.

YSI-what can brown do for you > For Sweden 07/09/2014 at 14:25

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Eh, even crappy hackjob racecars are awesome! Like I Spitfire I saw recently. None of the panels were aligned or the same color, but it was fast. . . really fast.

YSI-what can brown do for you > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 07/09/2014 at 14:27

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Was it the same guy that did the 52 second Tsukuba lap time?

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > YSI-what can brown do for you 07/09/2014 at 14:29

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I knew he was well under a minute but not sure of the exact time so it might've been him. I think speedhunters has some good write ups about it.

briannutter1 > YSI-what can brown do for you 07/09/2014 at 14:31

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It's such a slippery slope. After you've done suspension and engine mods, usually the next thing is weight reduction. That can be done well and still have it be streetable, but usually it doesn't and the car can never be returned to the street. I'm doing weight reduction now and am trying to keep a stock appearance inside.

Lastly, the driver can't enjoy it as often if it's not streetlegal and may have regrets about it sitting in the garage gathering dust. Aero is another thing that's usually applied way to early in the development (car and driver both).

tromoly > YSI-what can brown do for you 07/09/2014 at 14:43

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If they're done with the idea that they are not going to be street driven in mind, that's perfect. If done half-way such that they are still street driven, that's compromising on performance and not a good idea.

YSI-what can brown do for you > briannutter1 07/09/2014 at 14:44

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It really is. I am having fun and making parts list for a S13, so far nothing too crazy. Just some coilovers, contorl arms, wheels, new diff, and big overfenders. But the more I think about it, the more I want it to be faster. . . I am planning on obtaining an S13 out of college, hopefully I can it make it so I can drive it to a track/autocross, and then destroy the competition, and then drive home. We will see how it goes when the time comes to build it in real life!

YSI-what can brown do for you > tromoly 07/09/2014 at 14:51

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Yeah, sometimes the money is not sufficient enough to make an all out racecar. If you want to compete in Time Attack, you totally can in a road car/racecar. It requires road legal tires, no slicks allowed! So you get things like this , which can be driven on the street and on the race track!

On another note, the pro class cars can get really fast on street tires though. . . like on a certain circuit they are 6 seconds faster than Aussie V8 supercars.

CRider > YSI-what can brown do for you 07/09/2014 at 14:56

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My favorite racing is production based, so no. If it's done right.

Sn210 > YSI-what can brown do for you 07/09/2014 at 15:07

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it depends on the car and the car's situation. I'm going to use an e30 3 Series for example. If you want to build a racecar out of your e30 318 or 325 or whatever go right ahead. But if you want to take a perfectly stock e30 M3 and do an Ls swap and put in a roll cage, I'd disagree with you. If that e30 M3 had blown it's engine, had a ton of body work, and had a shot interior, I'd probably be ok with it.

djmt1 > YSI-what can brown do for you 07/09/2014 at 15:09

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Nope, all cars have potential to be race cars.

YSI-what can brown do for you > Sn210 07/09/2014 at 15:17

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I get completely what you are saying, but the E30 may be a bad example. I never got the big deal about the E30 M3. Then again, I think a Lamborghini Murcielago made into a racecar would be the most amazing thing ever. So I don't really care about whether a car is rare or not.

tromoly > YSI-what can brown do for you 07/09/2014 at 15:21

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Oh no doubt the more road-like classes are great. The thing that gets me is when people want to have a full-on race car, yet drive it on the street to get to the tracks, in order to do that properly there needs to be enough compromises to make the car comfortable on the street that its track performance goes down.

Sn210 > YSI-what can brown do for you 07/09/2014 at 15:29

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how about new edge mustangs? They built a ton of those, they even made a decent amount of cobras. I'm cool with race cars made out of those. Ford only made 300 Cobra R's, those should be left alone. That's just my opinion anyway.

briannutter1 > YSI-what can brown do for you 07/09/2014 at 15:33

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Choose a car that has good availability of cheap and used race parts is good start. A car that you won't get tired off quickly and end up replacing with a new car(and doing the same work on all over again) after a couple years. I'm happy with my c5z and don't long for a c6 or c7. One thing I've attempted over the years is to also fairly evaluate and prioritize what part will actually make my car 1 second faster rather than just look the cool. Erik at Backstreet Performance preps Pro SCCA, Narra, Nasa cars and knows what works and what is fluff. He's guided me against doing expensive or whacky stuff that yield lesser gains than proven cheaper or free stuff. An example is spending $1500-2500 on proper racing brakes/pads vs. $2500 on a carbon hood. $1-2k for the widest wheels and tires that fit vs. $1-2k on engine mods that add up to 20hp. Using o.e. parts that are downward or backward compatible to your chassis (often brakes here). Have a plan so you don't waste money on replacing incompatible or poorly selected parts. Don't buy parts before you need them because they'll be obsolete by the time you need them. Set an ideal limit on how much money you want to spend on consumables like brake pads and R-comp tires and find a stable class that caters to equalizers like 200 treadwear tires for instance. I did driver interface stuff like seat, harness, steering wheel, and shift knob because I was being bounced around in the car. A missed shift due to a hand slip is worth 3/4 second. After a HPDE at Mid-Ohio monday, I discovered I'm getting on the brakes too early because I need to be left foot braking and can do a cheap $15 pedal mod that will eventually net me 4 seconds total from 3 straights on a 1.45 second course, No one tells you that kind of thing in magazines with the exception of GRM. Most importantly, go to the track before you buy and seek out advice from car owners that race every weekend vs. guys who spend most of their time on the forums. They'll save you thousands and years off you development.

briannutter1 > tromoly 07/09/2014 at 15:46

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You have a great point about compromise. I could lose 300lbs off the car in one night, but then I don't get the pleasure of driving it on the roads as often as I do. Before my c5, I ended up parting out my unfinished c4 after it became apparent I couldn't truly afford a track only car and tow rig. I was very excited when the Optima street car invitationals started up with a points system that balanced drag, auto-x, and now road course disciplines-while still awarding points toward full interiors and 25 mile street cruises etc. Running 200 treadwear tires is an equalizer that allows me to play with guys that have another 250whp. It gave me a place to race and be competitive and still drive my car to the track. One Lap of America and GRM's Ultimate street car competitions are somewhat similar in spirit.

YSI-what can brown do for you > briannutter1 07/09/2014 at 16:00

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S13 parts are super cheap! I can get overfenders for 600 bucks, which will now fit 17x10 inch wheels, so I can rock some 285ish rubber! The differntial? I found a helical S15 diff for 500 bucks, it fits with a different housing for another 200. Either way, I think you get it, parts are easy to find and pretty cheap, plus it is a Nissan so a lot of parts are backwards compatible, engines, brakes, and so on. It one reason why they are so popular in the drifting community, they are as cheap as dirt and so are the parts.

I have a general plan. Plan is to get the car and set up handling first, then brakes, then attack power. The list isn't complete yet cause I am lazy. I will probably compile a list and put it up on Oppo and see what everyone thinks.

YSI-what can brown do for you > Sn210 07/09/2014 at 16:01

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Well, how different are the chassis between the regular Mustangs and the Cobra R? Cause if they are nearly the same, might as well go with the regular one right?

briannutter1 > YSI-what can brown do for you 07/09/2014 at 16:06

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Yeah, a 285 width tire is cheap in 17 or 18" and wheels are as well. I think your list is pretty good to start. Definitely do you research on coilovers and try to stay away from Japanese/Chinese stuff entirely. I ran BC's on a car back in '07 and although they were decently built, the valving was a joke. Only buy from people that can furnish you actual dyno graphs of your shocks.

YSI-what can brown do for you > briannutter1 07/09/2014 at 16:33

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Yeah the Japanese have a different version of performance coilovers, although sometimes Cusco makes some good ones. I am a big fan of KWs, even though I have never used them. I want the clubsports but I can't find it anywhere, so I am probably going to have to get some KW V3s and some top hats/camber plates from another company.

Dusty Ventures > YSI-what can brown do for you 07/09/2014 at 18:27

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Not ruined, repurposed. The whole point of car modification is to make it into what you as the owner want the car to be and what will make you happiest with your car. If that happens to be a stripped out race car then more power to you. If it happens to be a donk then I'm taking your keys away and you can have them back when you prove you're capable of responsible life choices ;)

Dusty Ventures > tromoly 07/09/2014 at 18:30

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What about rally cars? They're all street driven.

Vi517, JDX Racing > YSI-what can brown do for you 07/09/2014 at 18:31

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I think that as long as the car is converted professionally or well executed, then it is awesome.

My cars:

Subaru Outback X/T

Volkswagen Beetle

Volvo C30

A little broken, dang it Robb!

Volvo C30 Polestar :)

tromoly > Dusty Ventures 07/09/2014 at 23:58

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You wouldn't want to commute every day or go on a vacation in a rally car, would you?

Your point is valid, I commend you for that, however the novelty of driving a full-blown rally car as a daily driver would wear off quite quickly.

Dusty Ventures > tromoly 07/10/2014 at 00:06

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I do have a friend who is driving hers from Maine to Michigan, and I've occasionally gone on 100-300 mile trips in our rally Subaru. That said I do agree, most rally cars I wouldn't want to commute in regularly (though I've been in a few Super Production class Evos that seemed quite pleasant, or at least as pleasant as a regular Evo with fixed seats and 5 point belts). When I pointed out rally cars though I was more commenting in response to the implication that by keeping them road legal it's compromising on the performance of the vehicle. IMHO it's pretty hard to look at a top tier rally car and suggest there's any sort of compromised performance there.

tromoly > Dusty Ventures 07/10/2014 at 00:29

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To be honest, I completely missed that it was you posting the response, sorry about that Dusty.

You are 100% correct on the road legal part, it's a poor choice of words on my part and honestly I was thinking more of track-spec cars, not rally cars. For a track car, to get ultimate performance the suspension settings, items removed for weight savings (insulation, sound material, back seat, air conditioning), and other modifications make standard driving on roads of all conditions in temperatures ranging from freezing to scolding hot in a vehicle that the interior is now very warm from engine and transmission heat soak a nightmare.

As you said, a rally car is a completely different animal, as I imagine more of the "creature comforts" remain in place for the road sections to at least make road sections mostly bearable.

Dusty Ventures > tromoly 07/10/2014 at 01:06

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Rule of Oppo: if a post mentions rally cars there's a 95% chance it's me causing trouble ;)